What race is best?

First topic message reminder :

Right, me and Boehlke was chatting about the races in WoD and comparing them. When I say race, I mean Mage, Vampire, that sort of thing. And so we thought we would introduce others into this discussion.
So, what WoD race do you people prefer?
I prefer Mage, not just because they have awesome powers and such, but because of the potential for personal horror. Paradox is a major thing and should really weigh on a mage's mind. The very fact that a paradox makes magic harder to cast and widenes the abyss, which mages seek to close, is enough to make it a very big deal, but then comes the other effects as well.
Like summoning a fucking demon. That sucks. Hard.

Nemonomicon wrote:

I will reformulate. Why should a vampire, which is more beast then man be allowed to played? since ordinary, a vampire is slightly more man then beast, and therfore in controll.. I would creat a reverse frenzy for that kind of person, moments, where the beast would have to roll willpower, to subdue its human part, and only for a short while, give the player the right to play ones "lost" character.

Why? Why not?

Reverse frenzy? haha, gee.

sounds like a lot of work for very little game benefit.

Beast King wrote:

sounds like a lot of work for very little game benefit.

I think it is made so in order to explore yet another venue of human decay, would you not agree? What do you do with a person without remorse or regret of any action. Or perhaps the person does regret, but are so in tune with her vice, it makes her more or less addicted to sin. How does such a person repent?

I think it is a good Idea, instead of "You lost". It opens more possibilities. Is it possible to sink even deeper? What lies there? and as I said, how does one repent, what is the fight like?

Not really, just play upon the the person personality, give the vampire a willsave against mauling his loving wife, or grossly violate a personal ethic he has. at this point if the beasts willsave fail, the man in the beast appears. and for a short while, in control of its body again. creates potential great roleplay circumstancens when the beast fails to remain in control.

but how will you roleplay the beast?

Beast King wrote:

but how will you roleplay the beast?

You dont. The ST will.

Nemonomicon wrote:

Not really, just play upon the the person personality, give the vampire a willsave against mauling his loving wife, or grossly violate a personal ethic he has. at this point if the beasts willsave fail, the man in the beast appears. and for a short while, in control of its body again. creates potential great roleplay circumstancens when the beast fails to remain in control.

The point being, there is no franzy like that any more. Except fear frenzy, of light.

Boehlke wrote:

Nemonomicon wrote:

Not really, just play upon the the person personality, give the vampire a willsave against mauling his loving wife, or grossly violate a personal ethic he has. at this point if the beasts willsave fail, the man in the beast appears. and for a short while, in control of its body again. creates potential great roleplay circumstancens when the beast fails to remain in control.

The point being, there is no franzy like that any more. Except fear frenzy, of light.

How is that relevant?

and how will it be fun when you can't play your own character, except in rare ocasions?

Nemonomicon wrote:

Boehlke wrote:

Nemonomicon wrote:

Not really, just play upon the the person personality, give the vampire a willsave against mauling his loving wife, or grossly violate a personal ethic he has. at this point if the beasts willsave fail, the man in the beast appears. and for a short while, in control of its body again. creates potential great roleplay circumstancens when the beast fails to remain in control.

The point being, there is no franzy like that any more. Except fear frenzy, of light.

How is that relevant?

Because what you described there is a reverse frenzy. And as I said there is no more frenzy, hence your scenario is irrelevant because that would simply not happen.

Beast King wrote:

and how will it be fun when you can't play your own character, except in rare ocasions?

you will, always play your own character, that's the point. You play the beast fused with your personality.

1. I used frenzy as a metaphor for loss of control. Not directly a frenzy

2 . Your character is now a beast. Those small moments which the human in your show itself(if showes himself) , is your chance for retrubution, either trying to become a man again and not a beast. Or finish yourself of, before doing more damage on your love ones. A final sacrifice thing.

I just think thise would be a cooler way of "loosing" then just loosing control all together.

oh god, imagine beasty like that...
he would never stop killing.

Nemonomicon wrote:

1. I used frenzy as a metaphor for loss of control. Not directly a frenzy

2 . Your character is now a beast. Those small moments which the human in your show itself(if showes himself) , is your chance for retrubution, either trying to become a man again and not a beast. Or finish yourself of, before doing more damage on your love ones. A final sacrifice thing.

I just think thise would be a cooler way of "loosing" then just loosing control all together.

Metaphor or not, still not a valid point. You are one in this state.

You all remember the notions of the vampire nirvana? Golconda?

I think perhaps you know where I am going with this...

The beast is the curse of all vampires, it is the curse they constantly fight. To transcend you have to transcend the vampiric state. What is meant by that is not clear to anyone. except the ones that "might" have accomplished it.

When you have fused with the beast, making you one identity, rather than the schizophrenic state of vampirism. Have you not transcended then?

Or perhaps when you have managed this and still are sentient to some degree, and manage to rebuild your humanity would not that be called true transcendence?

this is strongly insinuated, and would explain why no one knows anyone who have achieved Golconda, because either they lost to the beast, or more importantly, when they transcended they wished not to elevate themselves. Or they became mortal again. If you were houndreds of years, and thinking of vampire physiology you'd most likely die the moment you became mortal again and so foth.

i agree. a vamps body, when killed, reacts in different ways depending on his age. a freshly turned vamp will decompose like normal, but an elder will burn to ashes in seconds.
if that vamp then turned mortal, it is plausible that this would happen in a second or something, since the proces of transcendence would probably take hundreds of years.

Beast King wrote:

i agree. a vamps body, when killed, reacts in different ways depending on his age. a freshly turned vamp will decompose like normal, but an elder will burn to ashes in seconds.
if that vamp then turned mortal, it is plausible that this would happen in a second or something, since the proces of transcendence would probably take hundreds of years.

Indeed, but then again, it is is also insinuated that you'd have to reach 10 humanity to transcend, you'd have to be a saint or something, you'd have to be completely selfless.
I'd say after fighting your way back up at humanity 5, you had transcended. You would feel compassion, love, everything, but you would also not be afraid to do what you want if sever actions are needed. Besides, by then Humanity would be nothing more than a figurative measure, you are the beast now, and no matter what you do you can't gain derangement anymore. you have simply reached the peak of vampiric existence, with the help of coils and all, you could just as easily live as a mortal, except for the day time of course.

it would be as close to Golconda as anyone could get, I agree with that.
On this subject, you do know Mages have something similar. they call it Ascencion and you need 10 in Gnosis to do it. Basically, the Mage becomes magic.

Beast King wrote:

it would be as close to Golconda as anyone could get, I agree with that.
On this subject, you do know Mages have something similar. they call it Ascencion and you need 10 in Gnosis to do it. Basically, the Mage becomes magic.

What happens to them then?

Wonder what Werewolves has as it's Ascend/transcend thing.

mages who achieve ascendance go beyond the mortal world into the supernal world, which is where they pull the magic from. What the mages do once they get there, no one really knows.

Ah, ok. So they would not be playable in our realm then? or?

No, not really. Why?
Because they cause paradoxes by breathing.
A mage with Gnosis 10 has so fricking powerful magic, its litterally overflowing, leaking into the surounding world. And since paradoxes is litterally reality fighting against magic...you get the picture.
No, mages with gnosis 10 is like playing vamps with blood potency 10. Doable if you really want, but not recomended.

I see, hehe. Funny. Think to behold such a person. I imagine piercing light beaming from every bodily orifices. And almost liquid/smoky like flow of magic slowly pouring out. The whole person engulfed in a glow. Pretty much a god.

yup, pretty much a flawed god. a non-flawed god wouldn't be causing paradoxes.

Indeed.

I really wonder what Werewolves has as this thing.

I don't think they have one. Similarly, humans or hunters don't have one either.

Hmmm, but they are a supernatural template, would have been a bit weird me think if they had none... But they are meant to do other things than Mages and vampires, so I guess that could be true.

omg..must I spell everything? Try not to overthink this this time..

1. i presented an option, where the role have been reversed. The beast is the one which are in control, and what left og your humanity is lurking under. Like the beast did before.
2. this is an option the fuse idea. which I dont really buy. since its I don think you should have complete control when your humanity reaches zero
3. Those few times the not beast part of you shows itself, are in moments which beast defy something which strongly goes against a personal belife of him.
4.this moments gives the the players a last chance to salvage his character, or give him a dignified end.
5. I dont mean restore his humanity as in Golconda. I meant in as becoming the vampire he once where. to once again overpower the beast.
6. This was just an idea I wanted to share.

and last but not least, trying not to indulge the beast every whim and be a better person seems to simple to be the way to Golconda. It must require something more I would belive.

I just gave the werewolf book a quick overlook and I couldn't find anything.
But if they do have something like Golconda and Ascencion, which like you say would be plausible since its a supernatural template, I would think it had something to do with mastering the Rage, since that is the primary "weakness" a Uratha has.
Imagine, a werewolf who has perfectly mastered its Rage, who can go into gauru form and retain its higher cognitive abilities. A gauru able to think and use Gifts.
The possibilities...

Nemonomicon wrote:

omg..must I spell everything? Try not to overthink this this time..

1. i presented an option, where the role have been reversed. The beast is the one which are in control, and what left og your humanity is lurking under. Like the beast did before.
2. this is an option the fuse idea. which I dont really buy. since its I don think you should have complete control when your humanity reaches zero
3. Those few times the not beast part of you shows itself, are in moments which beast defy something which strongly goes against a personal belife of him.
4.this moments gives the the players a last chance to salvage his character, or give him a dignified end.
5. I dont mean restore his humanity as in Golconda. I meant in as becoming the vampire he once where. to once again overpower the beast.
6. This was just an idea I wanted to share.

Yeah, sure. Could be a cool house rule. I tried to rely the rules on this, not some house rule. we clearly discussed past each other

Quote :

and last but not least, trying not to indulge the beast every whim and be a better person seems to simple to be the way to Golconda. It must require something more I would belive.

Do you think that is simple? When you are the beast, do you think you know this? We do, but not the character. The character does what it wants, the beast is very vice driven, and the character most likely will do what his vice tells him when the opportunity shows itself, because the character sees nothing wrong in it. That is why it is so hard.

Beast King wrote:

I just gave the werewolf book a quick overlook and I couldn't find anything.
But if they do have something like Golconda and Ascencion, which like you say would be plausible since its a supernatural template, I would think it had something to do with mastering the Rage, since that is the primary "weakness" a Uratha has.
Imagine, a werewolf who has perfectly mastered its Rage, who can go into gauru form and retain its higher cognitive abilities. A gauru able to think and use Gifts.
The possibilities...

Yeah, holy cow! That would have been RAD!

Eh, RAD?

RADICAL MAN! TOTALY NARLY DUDE! SURFS UP!

...lol...
yeah, I guess a werewolf like that would be pretty radical.

Nemonomicon wrote:

RADICAL MAN! TOTALY NARLY DUDE! SURFS UP!

Haha, yeah

Beast King wrote:

...lol...
yeah, I guess a werewolf like that would be pretty radical.

Very...

I wouldn't mind playing that actually. A werewolf with complete control over the wolf side. It would satisfy both my powerplay thirst and my want to play a shapeshifting character.
But to be able to master the wolf side, ohmigod the RP demand for that would be enourmous.
I guess that is why you can't play a vamp who has reached golconda either. oh well...
Maybe I'll make a transcended werewolf in one of my future WoD campaigns. as ST I can do anything I want and shit...

Beast King wrote:

I wouldn't mind playing that actually. A werewolf with complete control over the wolf side. It would satisfy both my powerplay thirst and my want to play a shapeshifting character.
But to be able to master the wolf side, ohmigod the RP demand for that would be enourmous.
I guess that is why you can't play a vamp who has reached golconda either. oh well...

Yeah... But you can play one good under way, which might be good enough. Add 5 dies to the rage roll and stuff.

Quote :

Maybe I'll make a transcended werewolf in one of my future WoD campaigns. as ST I can do anything I want and shit...

Sounds pretty cool.

the players better hope he is on their side...

Let the chronicle be about transcendence. The transcended one being the mentor or something.

interesting...
keep talking...

Beast King wrote:

interesting...
keep talking...

I'm drunk... I'll tell you of my story when I'm sober...

Hah, I'm sober now. I don't know much about Werewolf, and my mind draws blank just now. Pluss, it's not the right place to post story concepts.

true. when your mind unblanks itself, post something in the story concept thread. I think your idea has merit, and could be feasable, but I would probably make it into too much of a powerwankfest.

I will.