What race is best?

Right, me and Boehlke was chatting about the races in WoD and comparing them. When I say race, I mean Mage, Vampire, that sort of thing. And so we thought we would introduce others into this discussion.
So, what WoD race do you people prefer?
I prefer Mage, not just because they have awesome powers and such, but because of the potential for personal horror. Paradox is a major thing and should really weigh on a mage's mind. The very fact that a paradox makes magic harder to cast and widenes the abyss, which mages seek to close, is enough to make it a very big deal, but then comes the other effects as well.
Like summoning a fucking demon. That sucks. Hard.

I am a total Vampire nut. I like them.. I just like them.. Huh, probably some sick fetish I just won't admit.. Oooops. Oh well. Also, I am a huge fan of horror.. (Not splatter like SAW etc, but HORROR and Thrillers). Today you got a lot of this Ann Rice stuff, that is very romanticized, and that is cool to a certain degree. She overdoes it though, if you ask me. Also, you have the new, heh, even newer than Ann Rice's novels, Twilight and Moonlight, where vamps can stand some daylight.. Or the total gayness of twilight that says Vampires has no trouble with the sun at all, it is just that their skin will sparkle like diamonds if they are in the suns ray!!! COME ON! YOU DIP SHIT!! THAT TOTALLY RUINS IT?!?! What's next huh? Vampires can walk in the sun, eat normal food, and give birth? They just happen to have a bit longer teeth, and finds blood to be very good, and have super speed and strenght? No mam, if that happens, some one is gonna die.

So, that's why I like the Vampire line. They can be all suave and sexy and caring and all that. But on the other side they are beasts.. They might try to be humane, or heck some even are humane in their ways.. But behind all that, they still have to do sunpeakable atrocities in order to wake one more night. And that in itself is pretty alluring to me.. If that don't emphasizes personal horror, then I don't know what does. Within Vampire The Requiem you have so many aspects that can create suspense and horror, I'd say maybe even more than Mage, but that might be because I've only played Mage max two times, and that is not nearly enough to make up ones mind I am afraid. I've always seen Vampire as a bit darker than the other lines within World of Darkness. Well, I think I could go on forever about Vampires, but I'll stop now

Mage to me is like.. I don't know, I'm more a blood and steel type o' guy.. Not floundering around doing "spells".. But I totally recognize the potential it has to create Suspense and horror. So, I'd like to try it out for real once. So to with Warewolf.. Even though I'd probably kill off my poor character within the fist session. *smirk*

Boehlke wrote:

What's next huh? Vampires can walk in the sun, eat normal food, and give birth? They just happen to have a bit longer teeth, and finds blood to be very good, and have super speed and strenght? No mam, if that happens, some one is gonna die.

Actually, that has happened. They are called Living Vampires. I don't remember what author has come up with it, but they are almost exactly like you described.
And yes, it takes a way the Vampireness.

Now that is plane and simple SICK! I mean.. Picture Beauty and the Beast, ya know the Disney toon movie. OK, Exchange Beast with Beauty.. Then, what do you get? A FUCKING LESBIAN DRAMA!!!!

Or take Smallville, ya know superman. And take away his powers.. Is that fun? Doh, no.. Then it's just another episode of Home And Away.

Man, I'm really upset now. haha.

sorry man, but I couldn't help it. I too think the very concept of living vamps to be totally stupid.
On the eh...pluss side, there are normal vamps. they are just living vamps that have been killed and they are more stereotypical, can't stand the sun, have to drink blood etc.

Wait.. Did I get that right? When a living vampire dies, he becomes a Vampire? Doh! Am I the only one that thinks that sounds incredibly stupid?!

nope, I see the idiocity as well. and get this, living vamps are good, vamps are bad.
Eh, I don't think we need to say how increadibly stupid all that sounds, right?

Do you by any chance remember the name of the book.. Katrine reads something familiar... It is catastrophic!
There are not much good vamp literature out there, so as long as the "story" is good, you go for it I guess..

sorry mate, but I don't. It was my mom, who works in a bookshop and is a freacking walking lexicon, who told me about this one day we were discussing vamps.
Yeah, I know. Most vamp books are cheap romance ones where the vampire aspect gets glorified and romaticied. Its a shame, really.

Yes it is. If you like teen angst, the story in twilight is actually pretty good. The danger of vampireism is very very imminent. If the vamps could not stand the sun, everything would have been just perfect. The reason most movies and series featuring vampires make them stand sunlight is because of budget. having actors play night only, really costs a fortune.. A shame, really.

I just remembered a scene from Buffy, the vampire slayer. Spike, a vamp, was awake during the day, that alone flashes warning signs in my mind, but as he was about to go out into the sun, at fricking NOON and it was a very nice day, all he did was hold his jacket over his head like it was raining.
What the fuck?!?

Yeah.. That's kind of stupid.. But clothes offer some protection.. Now, if you are a regular joe...errh, Joe-vampire. haha, that was stupid. Anyway, if you are a regular Vamp, you should be able to last 7 seconds out in the sun. If you are totally covered, even your eyes with a thick leather suit, you should be able to be transported during sunlight, at least for a little while longer than almost 10 seconds. The other problems is, THAT will make people suspicious. And the most important, will you manage to stay awake. game wise, you'd have to take a composture roll each minute..

with huge penalties, if I remember correct.
Now that is one of the things I as a ST have changed with the rules. Direct sunlight with the sun at its highest point, is three aggrivated in a round. That's at least two-three rounds before the vamp is ash. Its too long. That's what, twelve seconds? (1 round = 6 seconds, right?)
For me, the amount of time is dependant on the weather. cloudless, high sun, not much polution, the vamp is dead in one round. of course, that is a regular vamp, not a hugely powerful one, of course.
Maybe I'm too strickt here, but the sun is supposed to be a vamps most feared enemy. Even Dracula, who managed to conquer lots of stuff when making his coils, never managed to conquer the sun, and there is a reason for that.
The sun kills vamps nigh instantly. its as simple as that.

Yeah. It might be a tad bit strict, I find the rules as they are just fine. But the strictness of yours could make for a cool day scene

The reason that I think the rules are just fine as they are is that. If you are inside a pretty solid but old house, and a small part of the roof suddenly collapse and you get hit by the rays of the sun, you have a chance of getting into cover. I mean things like that might happen. If you ontop of it is sleeping while it happens, there's 50/50% chance you survive. With your rules.. The player would have been toast right there. And that's not exactly fair to the player

okay, you have a point there. I didn't think like that.
Ah well, doesn't matter much to me anyway, I'll just sleep inside the wall or something

Hahaha, yeah. Me too. Burn you suckers!

So, what in your opinion is the Coolest thing about mage?

Boehlke wrote:

So, what in your opinion is the Coolest thing about mage?

Oh damn, now you ask a difficult question.
Well, part of me wants to say the Force arcanum, control the weather and turn around bullets and stuff. Prime is also pretty cool.
The adversity of the magic is neat, I think. You can find a spell that can work in pretty much any scenario.
Then I like the consequenses. If the mage uses his spells flamboyant and without thought, he fucks himself over so totally royally. I want to be a ST once where a player does that, just so I can unleash the most hellish paradox ever on him.
But what I think is coolest? That's seriously hard mate. there's just so many things. Its like picking one ice cream flavour over another. Not a simple decision.

Heh... OK. Yeah.. Guess I can't pin point what I think the coolest thing about Vampire is either..

It's just.. I don't know shit about mage, really. I have not bothered reading the books yet. I should though. But I still have two more Vamp books I'm not finished with yet.

So, guess I'm just curious about the whole thing.

I haven't read the whole mage book either, and Mool is borrowing it, although he doesn't seem to be doing much with is, so perhaps I'll have to fetch it soon and read some if doesn't get a move on with that campaign of his.

Haha, yeah. He said he'd post more of it today.. But no such luck

he was also supposed to meet me and eirik today, but he didn't show. Wonder where he's at. Perhaps I'll give him a call later today, after getting some shut eye first.

Yeah, maybe he got sick?

Anyway. Not to stray too much of topic, but do all of you go to school together?


I'd have to say that. Right now what I find most intriguing about Mage is the Paradox thingie. That sound awesome. Is there a setup of Paradoxes that can happen?

no, we went to NTNU together, but he decided to work instead. Necronomicon and I go to school together though, in that we both studied philosophy.

Yeah, there is a list of paradox severities and examples of what would happen for each one. I don't remember them all right of the bat, but I know that the last one is called "manifestation" and what happens is a hole between the material world and the abyss opens up and out comes all sorts of bad things, things often immune to magic acording to Ray. They will stay in the material world until the mage with the manifestation paradox dies.
Now that is harsh.

Christ. Gad damn bad ass. That is what I call Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny. To know that it will probably hunt you for all time, and many innocent will die, probably put some bad attention toward the awakened too. And the only thing that will stop it all is if you die. That is so damn cool man!

there are things summoned by a manifestation that simply slaugters anything, but there is one I particularly like. Its a doppelganger, it takes on the shape and form of the mage that "summoned" it perfectly, mimicking everything even spells. The thing is, the doppelganger is never in the same location as the mage and the only way to get it to go away is to confront it.
Now, imagine all the shit the doppelganger is going to do. Sleep with the mage's wife, beat his kids, basicallly royally fuck up his life.
Now that is a damn harsh paradox, if you ask me, and a really nice one from a STs standpoint.

Hahaha, yeah. That's pretty cool. There's basically limitless potential with that one.

What happens when you confront it? You gotta fight it? If you loose(die) what happens to the Doppler then?

when you confront it, it 'dies' and goes back to the abyss. No fighting involved. The problem is actually confronting it, as it is never in the same spot as the one who summoned it.

Man.. How cool wouldn't it be if you had to fight it.. And if you lost.. Then the doppler is you, fully. At least to the others.

the doppler is you, fully, to others. Only you can tell the difference, even your bloodly wife can't tell the difference, except with the sudden cruelty and such shit.
The doppelganger is a PERFECT copy.
Its freaking scary, I tell you. And how do you fight yourself?

Exactly.. That means it is impossible to confront yourself?

more or less, yeah.
I suppose some mages with the right arcana, or...uh...any werewolf, now that I think about it, could see the difference and help the unfortunate mage, but the mages with those arcana are rare, and a werewolf helping a mage is even rarer. But its possible at least. This is a Spirit we are talking about, so it could be done.

Huh, if you are extremely lucky a werewolf might destroy it without you even knowing? This is of course a very extreme incident.

that would be a VERY nice ST. Too nice, but still, miracles do happen, so it could be plausible, especially if the doppler did some big things that brought the wrong attention.

Ok, I'm going to take the chance to petition vampire as the "best race" because of the pure potential for morbidity, perversion, and grotesque actions.

notice no one has voted for hunter? why? because they SUCK!!!!

Hunter is not really a race, its a setting, which done correctly, gives humanity flavour. what Hunter that does, which none of the other books really do, is emphezising that you are outnumbered and outpowered by anything else, and you are weak. its actually are more horror friendly then all the other books. its also the only book which focuses on team interaction in combat, since unlike mage,vampire and the rest, from the start, tells you that the only way you might survive this impossible challenge, is to work as a team. So, Hunter do not suck, its actually good. those which dont get that, lack imagination i would say.

Personally, I think that werewolf, is the setting which lacks the most charm.

Nemonomicon wrote:

Hunter is not really a race, its a setting, which done correctly, gives humanity flavour. what Hunter that does, which none of the other books really do, is emphezising that you are outnumbered and outpowered by anything else, and you are weak. its actually are more horror friendly then all the other books. its also the only book which focuses on team interaction in combat, since unlike mage,vampire and the rest, from the start, tells you that the only way you might survive this impossible challenge, is to work as a team. So, Hunter do not suck, its actually good. those which dont get that, lack imagination i would say.

I would not go as far as to say that people who thinks that has a lack of imagination, that's rather ignorant. As all the lines it has its strengths, just as it has its weaknesses, it all depends on what the person in question fancy.

I don't agree on your point on Hunter being 'more' horror friendly though.

Hunter would make for a real interesting and fun chronicle. Although I hate the hunter "power" mechanics. I always forget what they call them. It takes the natural vs supernatural edge away me think
But then again that's the only thing I managed to pick up from that line. So I should not discuss Hunter further seeing as I know next to nothing about it.

Nemonomicon wrote:

Personally, I think that werewolf, is the setting which lacks the most charm.

This however I can relate too. Agreeing 100%. At least with the current rules. If I ever where to play a werewolf chronicle I'd nerf the rules so badly in order to make it enjoyable, however, in the process also removing the terrifying aspect of the game. It is all personal horror after all.

I don't understand what you guys have against the werewolves. Their personal horror is just as present as any other line, uncontrolable rage and the threat of spirits and the Pure.That makes for a lot of horror opportunities. When we put it like that, Mage is the one with the least horror elements. all they have is the paradox, when we look at the surface of it. Deeper, I know they have more, but you get my point, right?

Beast King wrote:

I don't understand what you guys have against the werewolves. Their personal horror is just as present as any other line, uncontrolable rage and the threat of spirits and the Pure.That makes for a lot of horror opportunities. When we put it like that, Mage is the one with the least horror elements. all they have is the paradox, when we look at the surface of it. Deeper, I know they have more, but you get my point, right?

I get your point and agree.

The thing however, is, danger of loosing control over the least insult or inconvenience seems like a tad bit more troublesome than enjoyable, and serves as a nuisance to many ST's and players alike. One must not forget that the rules is a kit, meant to help, so one should discard what hinders or is in some other way a hindrance when it comes to actual play. Having that in mind Werewolf is not so bad.

The better point in the view that Werewolf is the weaker link is when looking at the rules as they are presented. My concern is: Do you manage to keep it horrific when always faced with the danger of going bat-shit?

I see your point. But in my mind, you overstate their rage. Yes, werewolves are unstable bastards, but so are vamps, although not nearly as much.
How did Martin think it was like, playing a werewolf? I thought he did that just fine, he didn't do much raging at all.

Mage is low on horror initially yes, no doubt to that, but like all the other WoD games, there is room for making it a true horror campaign. Paradox is the main danger for mages, besides any other human dangers ocourse. but let us not forget the thing that really puts a mage on a leash. Disbelife. they have all tthis power, but done in front of a sleeper, they backfire. without no actions of the human at all besides just observing the event. done properly, mage dont have to be a powerwank fest, and if all rules and restriction are applied, the horror element would fit nicely in.

you have a point. Now take that point and consider wheter Mool will be able to implement it in his campaign.

if not, it will be a giant powerwank fest. But those are fun to.

Im pretty sure it wont be a horror campaign. more of a mystery/action setting, but time will tell.